Show Notes:
AC and Kyle chat with Daniela Jensen of Big Picture Foods. Daniela details how vastly different Big Picture’s regenerative products are from their conventional counterparts, how she and her husband Chris started the business, and what lies ahead for both their work at Big Picture and ReGen Brands at large.
Links:
Episode Transcript:
Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.
0:00:16
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Welcome to the ReGen Brands podcast. This is a place for consumers, operators and investors to learn about the consumer brand supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is Josh Kyle, joined with my co-host Dave C Let's Dive in.
0:00:33
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
On this episode we have Daniela Jensen who is a cofounder and the head of Brand at Big Picture Foods. Big Picture is supporting regenerative agriculture through their regenerative organic olive, pepper and caper products. In this episode we learn about Big Pictures Origin story, what is on the horizon for the brand and how they're supporting small scale regenerative organic farmers by taking industrialized and commoditized center out staples and reintroducing them into the refrigerated fresh set. Daniela is a wealth of knowledge on how vastly different a product like olives truly are when it is regen, organic versus conventional, and chemically brought to the market. Let's dive in.
What's up everybody? Welcome back to the ReGen Brands podcast. We are fired up today to have Daniela Jensen from Big Picture Foods here with us. So welcome, Daniela.
0:01:24
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
0:01:27
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Absolutely.
0:01:28
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Awesome. Well, we're we're excited to have you. For those who are not familiar with the picture of foods, can you just give us like a general overview of like what is big picture food sell, what are you about, where can you find the products before we dive into some of the more specific aspects of the brand?
0:01:40
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Definitely. So big picture takes center aisle staples, think olives, Peppers, capers, we clean them up and we reintroduce them into the refrigerated fresh set. So we have a focus on organic. We've planted our flag in regenerative, really committed to nutrient quality and all of our products are grown right. And prepared clean.
0:02:00
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Hmm.
0:02:02
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Four things that there's so many things I already wanna dive into there, but we'll hold off till we get further into the podcast. Sure, but that sounds really, really cool. What what's your favorite skew that you guys produce?
0:02:12
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Ohh, that's such a hard question. That's like picking your favorite kid. Like on.
0:02:18
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Any of the dogs can't hear.
0:02:19
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
You. Yeah, fair, fair. Kalamata, you can't go wrong with our new Peppers. The red Peppers are phenomenal. I mean, they take something bland and basic, think like a frozen pizza or eggs for Tata omelets, you name it. And they just elevate it to the next level. We have these amazing complex fermented flavors and then capers. Some of the feedback that I love hearing from customers are like, wow, this is what, a caper. Tastes like because so many times people eat capers and it's like salt, right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I like them all.
0:02:57
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
That's that's been a common refrain from a lot of the brands we've had is just the the consumer feedback on just the the flavor experience of eating their product versus the exact same product that's grown and and packaged in a different way. So we always love to hear that. Yeah, Danielle, take us through maybe your personal background, Chris' story, your story and how kind of big picture got started, take us through all the.
0:03:20
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Sure. So this will be a little shocking off of the visitors listening. My husband and I cofounded a company together. And for most people that's like doomsday, right. That's that's like worst case scenario. You've done something really bad. Now you have to work with your husband. But we, we met in advertising, you know, decades ago. We both started our career there and loved working together and vowed one day that we would again when we had kids. We both jumped ship. I went. Client side at Hasbro and Chris took a job at UNF I and it was really learning through him. He was actually his story is pretty funny when we we came across this amazing granola and we talked about taste a little bit, right. Everyone thinks about regenerative as being nutrient dense and better for the environment. But there is a direct correlation between how the food tastes and you know if you think about a tomato that was grown.
You know, he bought it out of farm stand grown in nutrient rich soil in the heat of August versus a hydroponic tomato in January. Like the taste, the texture, the color, all of it is different. So we came across this amazing artisan granola and my husband was like, I'm going to start a granola company and I was like cool, right on like full support.
0:04:42
Speaker #Kyle Krull
So yeah, like the core of natural foods, like the classic granola where person stocks like go go for more.
0:04:50
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Is unlike any granola I've ever had. You know, we, we need to. And it was a small batch. You know, somebody was making it in their kitchen. We bought it at a farm stand and he was like, we need to scale this, this is where it's at. So he wrote this business plan and started like. Talking to people about it and someone suggested that he talked to someone that they knew at UNF I and he goes in and he does his pitch and you know it's called lucky Batch. It was all organic. It was this great you know again this is like pre the granola.
0:05:18
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Yeah.
0:05:20
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
And the guy was like, you know, Chris, cool story. I think you should maybe do this another day and instead come work for me. We have this role. So we came home and he was like, well, back conversation didn't go the way that I planned. And he offered him this opportunity to be the marketing director of their in-house brands. And he started there and worked his way up and he ended up running. He became the President of Blue Marble, which is all of their in house. And that role with five kids, he was in food and I was in toy and we were like. OK, we've got our bases covered.
0:05:53
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Wow.
0:05:54
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
But it was pretty funny because he would come home and through his experience and food, our eating habits would change with the education that he was gaining, right. Neither one of us had experience in food. So I was learning through him. And you know, I remember him talking about sourcing organic Maple syrup and how we could never. I grew up on Antimima and he came home and he was like, we are never buying this type of syrup again. And I was like. It's the label, isn't it? He's like, well, that too. But the ingredients are atrocious. And so, you know, little by little we started kind of getting a peek behind the curtain into the food system. And I feel so fortunate to have had that experience. In terms of my background. You know, I've built brands of all shapes and sizes. I founded, scaled and sold my own juvenile products company after I had our youngest daughter. So I've been really committed to.
Finding these places where. I'll give you a little bit of background on the company that I did previously. It was called Nuru.
When I had Lila, who was our youngest, I got schooled on the benefits of skin to skin contact. And what I learned was that for a very long time, babies were being taken from mothers after delivery in the US hospital system because they wanted to. When I say control, that's probably the wrong word. But they were looking for ways to measure outcome and make sure that this was to our medical standards. You know, everything followed a process. And so when they would separate this very martul.
Behavior of keeping mom and baby together, they started to see negative outcomes and there was this nurse nurse Susie in Bogota, Colombia believe it or not. Yes. And she was working in a NICU and this Niku had no funding and there was very little opportunity to service these sick babies. And So what they were doing was literally wrapping them to moms chest because they didn't have incubated like it was just this very.
It's crazy to think, but something very basic is keeping mom and baby together. They started to see that the sickest babies were thriving when being with their mom. And so taking this back to skin to skin contact, we as a society has sort of interjected into these very natural processes. If you think about birth right, what's mom's first instinct to hold her baby to her chest? And baby typically will kick and when when this nurse was telling me she's walking me through the steps of birth and.
She was a midwife, right? So very naturally, holistically chained, trained, and babies will kick. And it's designed to kick at the mother's belly to help her rid the placenta, which she could be very sick if not all parts of it are removed. So when you start to think about these little things that nature does.
0:08:46
Speaker #Kyle Krull
That is insane. Yeah, blown away.
0:08:49
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Right, exactly. So I became hellbent on spending this hour skin to skin with mom and baby, designed a carrier that would keep mom and baby together because I came home to a very active household. I had four other kids running around. But I was really passionate about doing this not only for the benefits of baby accelerated brain development, reduce crying and colic, improved immunity like crazy benefits, but also, for mom, reduces the risk of her postpartum depression. The the whole point of this is only to say that nature has all of this figured out and we sort of stepped in.
And what I am so passionate about is finding the opportunities where like, the pendulum has swung a little too far. And you know, when I started Nuru, I built the brand around attachment parenting because again, I think that pendulum had swung a little too far. And when here bringing it back to today, what we're doing with big picture, you know, the industrial food system is the same story. That pendulum has swung way too far and unfortunately we're paying the price.
With human health, environmental health, so, you know, we're really committed to trying to level set and to educate and to empower people to understand because.
You don't know what you don't know, and so if you can inform and inspire, that's how true change is gonna happen.
0:10:14
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Yeah, that is an incredible amount of information. I just learned as somebody who has never had a child. Yeah, that's just wild and I really resonate with. I I just learned to Estat about reading, which is very much in line with like we we we went too far as an athlete growing up. Everyone says OK, hey, if you need air, like put your hands, you know, behind your head and like open up your lungs. And I think a Harvard study just came out that says actually the best thing you can do is lean forward and put your hands on your knees and breathe, which is everybody's.
0:10:44
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Natural response like.
0:10:45
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Right. When somebody's winded like that's the position everybody goes to. Yeah, you know, and they just proved in the study like that's absolutely the best place. The best way to like receive air? Yeah, when you need air.
0:10:56
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
I'm getting so just to like console right now at this store. You get rubber.
0:11:01
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Bands, you educate them. But there are so many of those situations that you just mentioned where it's like we went too far and we thought we knew what we were doing the right thing. But maybe it's just like we're trusting our natural instincts of these these natural tendencies is the right way to go. And it's as this conversation progresses, we'll see the same thing in agriculture, right? We think we're doing these right things and implementing these new systems and processes, but really like what nature has intended is really the best way to go.
0:11:26
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Agree.
0:11:27
Speaker #Kyle Krull
So really fascinating.
0:11:28
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah. And you know that's sort of in ohh. Go ahead.
0:11:30
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Sorry. No, you're good. Go ahead.
0:11:32
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
I think that that's when when we were thinking about what we wanted to come from big picture and you know, the the pandemic sort of put us on this path and it gave us the pause that we needed and maybe the kick in the pants to and the time to organize this. I think there became a point where Chris and I were like, OK. The universe is telling us something. All of these things are aligning, and they're inherent in our name. Is to see the big picture, right? And what does that mean? Better for eaters, better for planet, better for farmers. It's not coincidental, but all of these things work in harmony together.
0:12:11
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
How, how did you guys get to these products? Like how, why Mediterranean cuisine, like why big picture and the the product mix that you guys have Danielle.
0:12:19
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Great question. And so we looked for opportunity to clean up and make a difference. And the specialty food category has notoriously hidden behind heritage, right? But playing beautiful pictures of these, like rolling green hillsides and you know, none of it is organic, none of it is natural. And I think that you know.
First of all, all olives have to be cured before they can be eaten. You can't eat an olive straight off of a tree. It has Ola Prene that you would literally cure out of the products and and so for us it became understanding how the industrial system has taken over these specialty foods. So what used to be this artisan small batch farmers, olive, you know, they they literally soaked it in a saltwater brine for many months and they monitored it and there was a lot of skill and craft that went into it.
But what didn't go into it was chemicals and heat pasteurization and a lot of these new world ways. And if you think about the shift of what that did to something very basic like an olive, you know the new way of curing olives is if you're a green olive, you use lie, which is a caustic soda pumped with oxygen in a bubbly, hot bath. For you know what, what takes a traditional 6 to 9 months to cure is now shortened to days.
You gotta rinse the heck out of it because it's been sitting in caustic soda.
And then lab generated cultures are selected for speed so that they can accelerate the cure and then they pack it in an after brine, but it looks like an olive at the end of the day, it looks like what would once be a whole food. And I think that that's why this category especially has been able to get away with for as long as they have been, a lack of innovation and the ability to sort of pull the wool over people's eyes.
A little bit, you know when you think about dairy and some of these categories were much more quick to adapt organic or regenerative practices and others, you know, we are the only banana pepper on the market, the only to me that's crazy. But that just has shown that this industrial system has completely taken over the category and I think that consumers just became a little bit complacent and.
That was what was available. So that's what they're buying and if we can offer a better option, I I believe that people.
We'll want clean ingredients. I believe that the perimeter is growing. I believe that people are, you know, realizing more about what these industrial systems are doing to the nutrient quality of their food.
0:15:12
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Absolutely.
0:15:13
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
It's it's like a lack of awareness too. Like, I saw this video of this guy exposed, like Smithfield Foods is basically feeding plastic and cardboard to the pig because they're getting the grocery store like expired bread. And they're literally throwing like in the packaging into this giant grinder and they're turning it into feed. And it's like, I don't ever want to buy like regular bacon after I see that and that. That's not maybe the answer, but it is kind of just with especially an item like like olives. No idea, no idea how it's really. Packaged and and cured and all those things that you just educated us on. So I think not only when we talk about growing practices, but especially for products like yours, educating the consumer on processing and packaging and how that is different in this context is is huge as well.
0:15:59
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah. And I think that's, that's half the challenge and half the opportunity because to a consumer in in, in our space, as an example, when you see an olive bar like I will ruin olive bars for anyone who loves them. I'm so sorry if you're listening.
0:16:16
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Pull your ears.
0:16:17
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Fast forward that 32nd Jump button, but they are very dirty and. If you taste the difference, let's go back to taste, because I think that it's easy for people to love the hype of soil health and nutrient density, and those things all sound good. But the best feedback that we get from retailers are when they do the cuttings and they're like, wow, why does it taste so good? Like, it is night and day different. It's the tomato example. You know, Chris is Danish and we go to Denmark and my kids long for Danish strawberries. They think that they're magical, really, they're just grown in really good soil.
Um, and so you know if we can provide these alternatives to customers that that's really what we are setting out to do.
0:17:04
Speaker #Kyle Krull
I think it's really good point. And there's actually a chef's table episode. I think the guy's name is Dan Barber. Yeah. And he's out of New York and he is gotten so deep into taste that he has realized to get the best tasting produce and the best tasting meat, it's all about the soil health and what's the plants and or animals are consuming and that's what delivers the best taste. So to your point, it's not just the nutritional profile, it's not just soil health and climate, you know, ecological benefits, but it really does improve the taste of the food and for anybody who's interested. And who hasn't seen that episode? Highly, highly recommended. It's really inspiring with that guy's.
0:17:39
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Doing he wrote a book that's also very famous. I think it's called the third play. I it's been sitting on my bookshelf for quite some time. I need to read it. But he's Dan's a big, Regent, organic proponent. He's the man.
0:17:48
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
That's awesome. I love hearing that. And you know, when we think about like how people came to regenerative and listening to your stories on the original podcast, it's really fun. I think there's so many similarities about folks passionate about regen, and I don't remember if it was Anthony or Kyle. One of you said like my girlfriend can't stand in our conversations because somehow they always end up to regenerative.
0:18:10
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Yeah, that's.
0:18:11
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah, so that's definitely Christianity too, for sure. So we've found our people on this podcast, which is great.
0:18:19
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Totally. That's.
0:18:20
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
What we need, right? Yeah, we need those conversations to keep happening because like I just sort of unveiled a little bit about what goes on with specialty foods that you guys maybe didn't know. And I think we can all by keeping this relevant in in our conversations, that's how people are going to sort of naturally open their eyes to what's going on because nobody asked for this.
0:18:45
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Right, right. And and it's, it's at least I mean it we're all biased here. I think it's a fascinating thing to talk about. You know everybody is interested in the taste of their food. You know find me somebody doesn't care what their food taste like and you know maybe somebody exists but it's pretty rare. There's a growing amount of people who are concerned about climate and the nutrition that they're eating. So it's very like poignant right now it's a very good time to be talking about region because there is so much interest. But I want to steer the conversation a little bit towards you know you mentioned your product is unique in the category For these reasons that you have these really long like. Legitimate curing processes and I'm curious like how do you tell that story to retailers and how does that change the way that there is like your commercial scratch, like how, how do they buy in and how is support been so far when you have such a unique product that is generally self shelf stable that you're trying to get traction and imperishable like what are those conversations look like?
0:19:37
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah, great. They vary greatly between education of the buyer and yeah, sometimes you know you have a very committed buyer who knows the category, knows the space, understands that these products are grown and cured differently. And then sometimes you have a buyer who's like, ohh, regenerative, that's when you use other ingredients like upcycling, right? I have an awesome deck and and I want you like the the best thing that I can do is point people to kiss the ground because it is such an eye opener for so many and it's really easy. It's it's a you know it's not coming from me. So it's not like the brand is trying to have an advantage in telling them a certain story and I think everybody relates to it on so many different levels. So I point everyone, I'm like the biggest kiss, the ground ambassador that there is but I point everybody to the documentary for those who need.
Sort of a great education. A quick one-on-one um. And then it's all about trying to really articulate our points of difference and that's a challenge to do on package with customers and it's equally a challenge to do with buyers. But I think that when you tell the story, you know, when you break it down to our foods are grown better and this is how you know we're using cover crops, we're taking extra care to ensure that we have nutrients in the soil, we are rotating our land lays fallow. You know, even with olives it's like, well, you're not rotating. These Groves have been there for years.
It's how we're pruning. It's what we're doing to the soil. It's not using, you know, it's the.
Introduction of even letting the weeds grow because that's attracting certain insects and bugs that will then you know it's the age-old story of all of these things working in harmony. But for us we can take it back to the product in an interesting way because we have a two year refrigerated shelf life that's additive stabilizer preservative and heat pasteurization free. And so when you say that.
0:21:40
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Anybody is like, yeah, say all that again slower. So everyone can take that in because that's. That's crazy. Say that again, Daniel?
0:21:48
Speaker #Kyle Krull
And also explain why it's possible.
0:21:50
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Sure, we use just three ingredients in the curing of all of our foods. Water, sea salt and organic kosher wine vinegar, and. That allows our products to be additive stabilizer preservative. Like when I say additive, it's not oils, no lactic acid, no citric acid, no service like all of the junk our competitor, the banana pepper that's on the market. Eleven ingredients why do you need.
0:22:16
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Observe effort.
0:22:17
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Acid or why do you need sodium benzenoid or calcium chloride in your foods. And and so we really stand against that in in getting buyers to understand our ability to use three ingredients and not Add all of the stuff is because we're not cutting corners. And when you don't cut corners and when you work with nature she gives back abundantly. So our fields are all biodynamic. There is a plethora of naturally present wild cultures that are. Found on the skin of all of our foods. Those cultures are what inhibit or allow fermentation, not inhibiting, get my words out. So the opposite of that. So when they're in the barrels and they are fermenting, it's a much deeper cure. They're packed in the brine that they have fermented in, so that keeps them in package in equilibrium. So there is nothing to offset that.
And that wouldn't happen if we weren't growing our foods, if we were spraying all of those cultures gone right, because it's, it's destroying you, you don't get to self select right. It's destroying what is on the skin of the foods. And so when you use lab generated cultures they're selected. You can't have the the magnitude of the variety that we have that that enable that complete cure. So it requires the additives, it requires the stabilizers, it requires the heat pasteurization.
And you get half the shelf life, you get nine months versus 2 years. So when you start to break this down and use, you just explain it as, OK, we're offering a superior product when it comes to taste. We're offering a superior product when it comes to shelf life, really easy for you to manage. You know, here's the benefits to you, the retailer and the benefits to the consumer is we're at price parity with conventional.
So to a customer, they're buying on two things, right taste and price. So if we can win on both of those fronts, it should be a slam dunk, right? Better for all.
0:24:21
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
The big dropped to my dropped the mic after that. Yeah, love it.
0:24:25
Speaker #Kyle Krull
I would say like the hardest part in my opinion, about. I mean, we just talked about this for I'm not sure how many minutes when you talk to a buyer, you have a presentation and visual aids and you get to explain all this. But for a consumer walking through the store who sees the refrigerated olive, how do you effectively communicate all of that into something where they can see and be like, OK, I want to give this a shot, you know, like, what does that look like? That's hard. I mean, it just seems like an insurmountable challenge.
0:24:52
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah, that's what keeps me awake at night.
0:24:56
Speaker #Kyle Krull
I'm sorry to bring that to your day and as well as your night, so I apologize.
0:24:59
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
We're learning as we go. And yeah, you know, we think that first of all, being placed in the perimeter, it's dicey. But most consumers understand that products there are better. Now that's not always the case, but gosh, wouldn't we love it if it was? Trying. So that sets us apart there. Everybody understands clean ingredients and I love that more and more people are flipping the packages over and looking at the ingredient panels. Listeners, you know, please keep doing that. It's really important. Natural flavors and all of the other sort of it's tricky and there's a lot of confusion and deception when I look at our competitive set and it says packed in brine. And I know that they've been chemically accelerated and I know that.
That's not the mother brine you know. There is no probiotics in that brine. There is. It's not true fermentation. So but they can claim fermented because it was.
In a lab, it was fermented you like. So there's all these nuance that a customer.
0:26:03
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
It's like when it says natural flavors and that means like 30 things underneath it that they don't have to tell you. It's like I say, it's like the same concept.
0:26:11
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah.
0:26:11
Speaker #Kyle Krull
But it's an important thing to discuss it. It's rampant in like, the meat industry as well. You know, cow can spend its entire life in Brazil, but if it's processed in the US meat facility, it'll say like.
0:26:21
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
USB USA.
0:26:22
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Yeah, exactly. Probably to the USA. So it's it's crazy to me and this is a really interesting point that we haven't discussed yet on this, but the regulatory bodies who regulate packaging messaging. To me there there's an opportunity to improve the transparency to alleviate some of this confusion that customers deal with because they might look at a package and think like, oh, cool, this is Brian too. You know, I don't need to worry about refrigerating it when really they're getting a sub quality.
0:26:47
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Product.
0:26:48
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Yeah.
0:26:48
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
It's hard and I think the more we hear feedback from consumers and the more we understand purchase behavior and what's driving motivation, we'll just continue to iterate and hope that we get better with each go and sharpen that. And so like we have to think about building these brands as a marathon and the long game and you know, we we're probably not going to get the packaging right the first time and that's OK, right. We're learning as we go and you know, we're constantly iterating and constantly improving and I think that should be.
The standard that we all hold ourselves to.
0:27:27
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Hmm. And I think 11 observation and two questions is you know Kyle and I have a a mass, I think a pretty solid network in Regent CPG hence why we wanted to do this podcast. But that's going to look different for Alex ice cream and it looks for a big picture of food then it looks for Alexander family farms that looks for Fortune Nature Meats. But I do think there's an opportunity for all the regenerative brands to kind of come together and say hey here's what's working, here's really what's resonating, here's really what's not and kind of have a like a shared a sharing session. Really that I think would be, would be super beneficial. 2 questions on kind of retail, commercial track record. So tell us, like what channels are you in online, in store? Where you at? Where can people find you? And then I'm super curious, how are retailers merchandising the product? Are they putting it in the hummus set? Are they putting it in the produce, you know, set? Like where, where are they actually putting the product in store?
0:28:17
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah. OK. So first question. Well, let me respond to your comment because I love the idea of, yeah, more that we can do together, right. Like it takes a village. I'm here for all of it, you know, questions there's, I love the community of brands that are in this space and the willingness to help and propel one another. So, yes, sign me up for that. But then second question was retail space. Yes. Did I lose my train of thought? Yeah, yeah.
0:28:48
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Yeah, real distribution and merchandising locations.
0:28:50
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Sowehavea.com bigpicturefoods.com. That is, yeah. Well, on that is only to catch. You know, we've gotten so many emails of like I was at a wedding in, you know, blah, blah, blah, and I bought your products there and I can't find them here. Yeah. So that that's really a catch all. We're not doing much to promote there. It's a challenge for us in the refrigerated space to ship cold, especially in the summer months.
But our focus is on growing retail. And so we started, you know, we sold our first case in January of 2021 and built the business in right off of the heels of the pandemic, which was a challenge in and of itself. To this day, most of our category, the olives accoutrements category is not up for review. So it's really trying to convince these buyers that you have something unique and different and that they should at least consider it.
But we built the business in natural independence, you know, Mom and pops and CG's and and these are the stores that understand what we're doing like this. This is our community. And then you know you, you as you build and learn, you get to the 20 change stores, the the you know met market, the Nuggets, the town and countries and you know they too are committed to helping brands you know, get that recognition. So it's awesome to find.
Retailers jimbos with their soil program, I know you guys always talk about them, but you know, they're a great example of OK, how to merchandise the product. So because we're refrigerated, depending on the store set, you'll see whether they have olive bars or not, pandemic closed a lot of them. So people are placing products in those salad bars. That's what Sprouts is doing right now. But when we had this conversation with jimbos, they were, they had. And what we constantly hear is refrigerated space is a premium, right. There's lots of brands.
Dying for cold chain and the beauty is right, the bulk of our competitive set does not require refrigeration. It's sells better when refrigerated, but it doesn't need to be there. So it's reminding the buyer, hey, you've got these products that are heat pasteurized and shelf stable in the refrigerated set. Why not move them to ambient, give us a shot. And so that's what the conversation has been like, whether we belong with specialty or whether we belong with.
Fermented is, you know, sort of yet to be proven. It really depends on the strategy of each of those sets within the store. Sometimes the fermented sets are very niche and others, they're more broad and they have Pickles and crowds. And you know, sometimes it's like just kimchi and the few other outliers there. So it's really store specific, but we're in.
Probably 400 and 5500 points of distribution now. Nice and working like heck to build and grow that. Love it.
0:31:55
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
It it, I imagine it creates some buyer confusion sometimes because like with some stores they do want you in the hummus set. And that might be a different buyer than like the olive person that buys like the center store olives. And so just dealing with all that I'm sure is is nice and nice fun challenge for you all, but it sounds like you're doing well with it.
0:32:11
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah, we're hanging in there. It's it's always a an interesting conversation and you know, to the brands listening, it's so important to understand your category review calendars because the most frustrating thing and learn this lesson the hard way. Was ohh you need to talk to this buyer and her category review or his category review was last month and you were like ohh so you're literally waiting another year because very seldom are they slotting in new items.
0:32:39
Speaker #Kyle Krull
I'm curious from from your perspective, if you were to guess what set would be like if you could merchandise big picture foods right next to some other product that has like national distribution, like what would that look like? Who would you be right next to and why?
0:32:56
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
If I had my druthers. That's a great question. I would. I think that I would want to be where and this is also a big challenge for them. If you've listened to Heaven's Kitchen at all and her sauces, they are a compliment. And and much like our foods, you know, I think about our foods as an ingredient and they go with a lot of other foods but they are in their own right snack. So do we put them in with salads and produce? I think that that in my dream would be the sweet spot to walk in to see them all merchandise there.
You know, sometimes we're with prepared foods, sometimes we're with and and this is another I would say we've talked about our number one and #2 challenge. One is communicating our points of difference on pack and two is how we're merchandised in store.
0:33:47
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Yeah.
0:33:47
Speaker #Kyle Krull
I yeah, I I mean, you need to be.
0:33:49
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Connected to the Grillos Pickles? That's your customer. It's me that buys the Grillos Pickles that are like $8.00 every time I go to Whole Foods.
0:33:57
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Right. And in some stores we are, but the challenge there is in if we're speaking candidly about Whole Foods, they continue to point us over to specialty. So we tried to make that same argument and that's another example of making sure you know the right buyer to approach or approach both, you know, just make sure you're checking all the boxes.
0:34:16
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Take us through. The actual supply chain, right. So where are you guys sourcing from? What practices are they doing? You alluded to it a little bit earlier, organic regenerative where, where are they, what, what makes them different on just the pure like AG production side of things?
0:34:29
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Cool. So we have 3 founders, myself, my husband Chris and Sotiris Kitra Lakis and he really is the linchpin to the supply chain. He is the Wizard of I I mean he is hands down one of the most brilliant people I've ever met. And he's in his later years of very seasoned career in the food space, but also MIT grad. Like amazing background in in a very different trajectory but so tired. He was the founder of the Peloponnese. Mount Vicos brands and has long established ties in Greece and his story resonated so deeply with Chris and I Chris worked with him at Blue Marble. They acquired one of his brands and formed a very fast friendship and and had stayed in touch.
And so tyrus's. Passion for traditional foods, traditional artisan foods run so deep. And for him, it's about the community of where he lived. And he watched these farms, these small family farms that had been in families for generations. Yeah, be gobbled up and converted and.
At the same time, now he's he's living in Greece and. The the rise of cancer among the farmers is rampant. Nothing else changed but the synthetic inputs that they were doing to their land. And if that wasn't brick to forehead, you know, these are friends. This is a community of people that were sold this idea of hey, if you treat your fields you know your yields will increase. But doesn't that sound great? And 50 years ago you know, it was like, oh, I you know.
0:36:09
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Sure, sure.
0:36:10
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Try and see what happens and it's it's like the gateway drug, right you, you're Groves become dependent on it and then you need more of this and more of that and so big picture our supply chain is right now. Centered on supporting the small independent farmers that have stayed, you know where we aren't converting at this point. We're really focused on making sure that these farmers can maintain.
And not have to sell and not be sort of industrialized, if you will. So they in order for us to do that and it's really important because they're getting squeezed, our business is a commodity business, so everything is bought and sold on that day's price. You know, all of the olives, for example, our purchase, they go to an aggregator. There's you know, ten hands that happen along the process and then you buy them based on size.
OK, let's break that down for a minute, right? If, if you are a brand that's purchasing from a third party because you want large Kalamata olives, it's so easy to cut corners and for farmers to create large olives. First they water the heck out of the soil and they pump it with nitrogen. That's going to create a fatter plumper olive. It's not going to taste better. It's going to taste watery. Olives have olive oil in them, right? Like they.
They don't make these no longer taste oily or that rich, yummy goodness that you know from an olive. They're bland, they're runny, you know, so now you've degraded the quality and the integrity of the product by sort of.
Changing your principles to cater to what the sales are supply and demand, right. So back to what we do, we purchased the, we work direct with our farmers. So no middle men, no sourcing our farmers both grow and ferment our products on site for us. So what does that mean to the customer and what does that mean to the farmer. So to the customer our products go from field to fermentation barrels and hours for superior taste and nutrition, right. It's have this all happening small batch.
On site, what does that mean to the farmers? They're both growing and curing. So typically they're only paid to grow, right. So this is dual income for them so that they can maintain what you know their commitments and passion is. So you know that's a small way that we are supporting the farmers, but all of the items are then. So for six to nine months they will cure on site when we talk olives are a little bit different than Peppers and.
Papers, olives have different growing practices purely because you're not rotating, you're not, yeah, you know, there is no till, et cetera. But for us, we're using fava beans to replenish the nutrients back into the soil that could, you know, as we think about ways for brand extensions that could become another component because it's integrated into our supply chain. So will there be future products from big picture with cover crops? We'll see.
0:39:17
Speaker #Kyle Krull
I love that concept. Just for the record. Yeah, it's so cool and it's something one of our other guests, Heather Terry was doing with Good Sam. And I think it's such a unique way to think about product innovation to go into your supply chain, figure out what's gonna make this the most nutrient dense product. I think can we use that to to stand up a new vertical or new new product type pack size, you know, it just really, really cool and admirable that you're doing.
0:39:40
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
That, yeah. And to that end, you know, we're also buying their full yield. And why is that important? A lot of times people will come in and say, I'm only buying. You know, right? Base by size or based by appearance or trait. And if you look at our packages, you buy our calamata, there's a variety of sizes that are in each pack and they're, they're natural products, right? So the taste is.
Um, it's unique and it's artisan and I think. I would rather have a product like that than open it and have everything be just, you know, that's what the industry has done. We've uniformed everything. So you know, I think it's refreshing to see items that are holistic in that sense. This is the full crop.
0:40:26
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Yeah, I mean, as somebody who has tried big picture food, specifically the Kalamata olives, I remember 1 being surprised by the amount of variability in the pack. And two, it was almost like an adventure, like a choose your own adventure, because each olive does have a unique taste texture for profile, and it was really fun to eat them. It's like, OK, what's this one going to taste like? No, what's this one gonna taste like? And it's not like, you know, chocolate and beef differences. Like, it's not that crazy, but there's like enough nuance and subtlety that you can really. Get some different profiles and I thought it was like a really exciting way to eat olives. And you mentioned before you you consider them an ingredient. For me it's just like pure snack. Once you open the pack, there's no.
0:41:05
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Chance going on bridges?
0:41:07
Speaker #Kyle Krull
So good.
0:41:08
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
In the house.
0:41:10
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
So much like a natural wine, if you will, right? Wine connoisseurs will have a lot of discussion around the aroma of the wine or the terrar, which I had to Google what that meant to be very honest. But it literally translates to taste of place. And it is from the soil, from the climate, from the region of which these foods were grown. And it's really cool to think that all of our foods are capers, have a terrar to them, you know that that is unique. And just as you said, like there's these floral nodes and it's like, oh, this one tastes a little different than that one. And it's like a choose your own adventure.
0:41:51
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Love that. We gotta get way more focused on that and and food, it's it's that's awesome.
0:41:56
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
So going back to our supply chain, ohh, go ahead.
0:42:00
Speaker #Kyle Krull
No, I was just agreeing. Going just feeling enthusiastic about all of this right now, wishing I had some with me.
0:42:07
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Really, that's the only problem with a virtual recorded podcast with three people. Everyone is just so excited. You just talk over each other. But that's OK, it happens.
0:42:15
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Story of my life too, though. We were talking about supply chain and I lost my train of thought.
0:42:21
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Hmm. You got five kids you do with this everyday? Don't know.
0:42:24
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Ohh man.
0:42:26
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
How? How old are all the kids?
0:42:28
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
We have three that well, two are in college, one is nearing college, and our two Littles are home. So 10 and 13 are my youngest.
0:42:37
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Wow, you're doing it, you're.
0:42:38
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Looking chaos, yeah.
0:42:41
Speaker #Kyle Krull
It sounds like it. I have two dogs and I feel like my life is busy and I'm so.
0:42:45
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Wrong.
0:42:47
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
But the cool thing about raising a business and raising a family at the same time is that. At the end of the day, our kids are seeing Chris and I. Risk and try and zig when others are zagging. And for that lesson alone to know that you know you can act on your dreams and be the change that you want to see in the world. You know, whether irregardless of the outcome, they're seeing us do it. And that's in and of itself really cool.
0:43:19
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Yeah, well.
0:43:20
Speaker #Kyle Krull
That is awesome. And they're lucky to have parents who have such aspirations. And I'm sure that's, you know. Provided an example that is. It just invaluable you know. So good for you guys for taking on not just one or two but.
I mean, if you think company Co founding together and five kids, 7 pretty significant jobs at the same time.
0:43:43
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Our marriage is pretty stable, keeping you down. Yeah, it's like, alright, if we didn't break by now, I think we're OK.
0:43:49
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Yeah, yeah. You're good to go.
0:43:50
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
You're you're chasing something that has meaning behind it. You know, you're not just chasing some get rich quick scheme or something that's purely motivated by profit, which I think is another thing that goes into that and you know Speaking of of money and growing and you launched the first case you sold in January 21, you've needed money to fund this whole thing so. Give us a little insight into how you guys have funded the Business Today, what that might look like in the future and just fundraising history.
0:44:13
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Sure. This is my most challenging subject to speak on because as a founder, right, you're focused on building the brand and scaling the business. And you know, when I got into this, I had always had the benefit of oftentimes having a budget to work with. And you know, when it's your own company and your, your figure, all of this out, it's like, yeah. And so we've been fortunate to. You know, be self funded. Up to this point we have had friends and family see dollars and have really bootstrapped. I mean I think that that's evident in our marketing and and you know the website was built by yours truly, right? But.
0:44:58
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Hold on.
0:44:59
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Hey, yeah, we'll get there someday. But I think that for us it's really taking on the right investment. And I've seen this go wrong in previous careers in different iterations. And it's really important for big picture to make sure that we are bringing in partners that are a strategically adding value, not just bringing capital and be are committed to the mission. Because like I said, we're in it for the long game. This isn't a Sprint and I think it's really important. For brands that are trying to change. The food system, to have partners that are committed to that mission. You know, I I see it all too often, I'm sure you guys do too, that these mission driven brands get VC funding and you know they are.
Really the the mission becomes marketing.
0:45:50
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
And.
0:45:51
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah, for sure. So. We hope that we have a long enough runway now that we it buys us some time to find the right partners. But when you're building and scaling, fundraising is a full time job. So it's like.
0:46:07
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Never ends either.
0:46:08
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
For those conversations in the day that is, you know, jammed, but definitely a priority for the coming years and something that we're certainly thinking about.
0:46:22
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I feel like, you know, you hit the nail on the head with finding the right partners. And it's one of the recurring themes that we have. You know, we've done 7 episodes now and it's been really fun to see the trends and the themes that continue to pop up in each episode. And one term you keep using is like the long play, like you're in this for the long haul. You're trying to build like an actual business that's going to have a positive impact for years to come rather than like a turn and burn VC capitalized, flipping bail, which has been like the common theme, at least in my. In your career in natural foods. And it's really cool to see. And it's also. I mean you're talking about the challenges, right, to building a brand with a different mentality, to really think like we're trying to build a business that's going to last and it's going to make an impact rather than just trying to like like anything was talking about earlier, just make a buck and get out. And it feels to me as somebody who hasn't done this myself, which is spoken to numerous founders like it is significantly harder to do. So just want to commend you and the others who are are taking this on to try to make positive change that it's it's inspiring. So really, really cool.
0:47:27
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
To the people who get it right to the buyers. To the consumers, to our like minded friends and you know you don't realize the risk that is associated with it and.
Sharon from Alexander she. Gave me this. It was like the the Nugget that I needed on the day that I needed it. And you know, we were talking about how they built Alexander and she was like Daniela, we literally bet the farm. And when you think about there is no advancement without risk, right? And we're all risking at some.
Component and and I think that that's where true change is gonna come from. So if brands like us can hold on, right, if we can get our retail partners to understand that we don't have these deep marketing pockets and that you know, we're doing everything to pass the price on to the consumer. One thing that breaks my heart is that we've got a great margin and sometimes I feel like the brand gets beat up a little bit because it is regenerative organic and because that means premium.
That they'll charge a dollar more for it. So now they're making in the 60s on it and you're like your velocity would be so much better if you can keep it at 599, right. So you know it's and it's a challenge. We have no control over that, right? But.
0:48:53
Speaker #Kyle Krull
But that's really tough and I just want to empathize with that position. You know, I I work in sales than natural food industry and there is a ton of pressure right now on brands to invest deeper in DLP's to reduce everyday prices or to go deeper on promotional ads and spends because retailers are very cautious of the inflation that's going on right now. And their expectation is that they want the brands to fund to foot the bill to keep prices low, which is difficult for anybody. We do. We all have budgets to get to work with. But you know, to, to circle back to what we talked earlier, it's even harder for small startup, you know, regenerative branch who are trying to go with the long play and not venture capitalist and don't have a ton of funding like those deep pockets. I think a lot of retailers these days assume everybody's funded, everybody's got deep pockets, they're trying to get their piece of the pie. And that's just not the case anymore, especially for the brands who are trying to do it right.
0:49:48
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah. And I think that, you know, for a retailer, I understand. Inflation, and I understand that everyone's costs are rising. We haven't had a price change. And so, you know, it's reminding them that hey, we didn't increase our prices last year and we're really working hard to bring better food to more people. If organic and regenerative is more expensive, it's, it's sort of the wet blanket that's on everything, right? Like we need the scale, we need everyone to be eating these foods, not just this select group of people that can afford.
This premium item. So how did we right, you know, flip the script on that is something that we're working through.
0:50:34
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Yeah, it's, it's a really great point and I think you're spot on like we need mass adoption here. So to be hyper premium in a category it creates like a a barrier for those who want to try to support this and literally can't afford to. But I want to talk a little bit about this pivot towards like the future. You mentioned a potential product innovation like the legume category to complement the regenerative all of the efforts of production level. Are there any other potential like new item innovations or other initiatives that big Picture Foods is going to be taking, you know, maybe next year or you know where do you see yourself in five years? What does the future look like?
0:51:05
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Yeah, for us right now we need staffing and support. We are small and mighty team that's wearing many hats and again this gets tied into the. Investment conversation and I think that we are, we have a bunch of irons in the fire in terms of new product development. It's understanding when to pull those levers and you know we're kind of watching the category and I think that for us, you know, you can rest assured that everything big picture does will be regenerative, organic. You know I think that there's a variety of things that we can do whether it's cover crops or repurposing our brines or new item introductions that fit within the.
Specialty accoutrement space, you know, think about items that you would see on a grazing board or I I think the sky is the limit and we built the brand broad enough to be able to have that freedom and that flexibility.
To to not just kind of be this niche specialty item, but can really carve out and be about.
Regenerative organic, you know we think about what 365 has done as an example or some of these bigger brands that cross categories. I think that customers are more willing CSA great example as a brand that they're in every aisle now and good for them, you know. So I love seeing that from from the category and people going both deep and broad.
0:52:40
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Yeah, I think it's a great call and I think what's a has done so well is they have a really foundational why. And they have a very unique selling point. Compared to the competition where you know they, they're not using high PUFA seed oils and they're just breaking into a bunch of categories and offering like a healthier fat, healthier oil alternative. And that core tribe of people who want originally cassava chips are now finding themselves buying Mexican cookies and you know churros and now they just got into beans all sorts of stuff. So what's yeah you find that foundational while you build attraction in one category. I think you're absolutely right. You have the ability to.
Of Spain, various aisles across the store with success.
0:53:26
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
10 years from now, when we're having another conversation, Danielle, we'll have more before that too, but after after the first ten years of the marathon, which will last much longer, you know, if you've accomplished these three, four or five things, you know it's success. What what are those things?
0:53:40
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Well, let's hope my hands aren't on my knees and I'm not like.
0:53:46
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Well, at least it won't be over your head. Yeah, so that's good.
0:53:49
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
True, I couldn't read. She was just too exhausting. Let's see. I hope that we can generate the volume and be creating more change. So one of the things we talked a lot about nutrient density of our foods, right, and we've talked about how we both grow and cure them. One thing that we haven't touched on is the environmental impact of big picture and there are some amazing studies on our Groves and Greece, the EU climate study that talks about.
A conventional olive Grove releases 1/3 of a ton of carbon per acre annually versus a regenerative organic olive Grove that's sequesters a ton of carbon. So every acre of our Groves, we're sequestering a ton of carbon. And you know, we're on target for 20 tons of carbon this year. And that's exciting to me to see that number build and scale. And you know, I really, I hope 10 years from now we can look back and say that all of those efforts because it's now or never.
Right. We're either going to change the way that we're growing our foods and it's going to have an impact or we're really gonna mess things up for these future generations. And I I really hope to be part of that change that has measurable results. And it's cool to see like these are measurable results. There is no disputing one is releasing carbon, one is storing carbon.
0:55:11
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Which do you want? That's really cool. And it makes me think back to the packaging conversation we're having, like, and I think there's probably a regulatory limitation, you probably can't put sequesters one ton of carbon per Grove or per acre or whatever you want cannot legally put that on your package. Is that correct?
0:55:25
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
We haven't explored it only because it's too risky.
0:55:29
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Right. Yeah because there's variability and then we're liable to you know being sued cause maybe it's half ton on this growth. It's, it's just right. It's so tough to nail that messaging especially in today's climate. It's just it's. It's really hard.
0:55:41
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
For sure.
0:55:43
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
So let's go macro, Daniela. And this is the question that we we wrap.
0:55:47
Speaker #Kyle Krull
Let's go big.
0:55:48
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
Picture. Yeah. Let's go big picture. Yeah, I like that. And we ask everybody this question, final question of every episode. What do we need to do, you know, at large for regenerative brands that 50% market share by 2050?
0:56:01
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Alright.
0:56:02
Speaker #Anthony Corsaro
My ankles. Deep breath.
0:56:06
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
Sweating again, like I am such a student in this whole thing. So everything shared is I'm I learn everyday and that's what I love about this. So this is an opinion of 1. But I I think that we have to align ourselves in the messaging and there's a lot of argument and debate around certification. I think if we're going to educate people on the benefits, there is a spectrum, right? And people need to understand that there is a spectrum and a good, better, best. And and that, you know, you can start somewhere and you hope that they're progressing. I love listening to the the Quinn podcast that you guys had where she was talking about, you know, that sliding scale too and how they're just constantly striving for improvements. And I think that if all brands find themselves on the spectrum somewhere and we keep reaching up, right. Like I'm proud that big picture started high. That was intentional for us, you know, being like we're in the process of Roc certification now, but.
Even Roc has a gold. A silver. Yep, and a bronze. And so, you know, I think that if we can understand as an industry how to speak to consumers about regenerative so that they deeply understand the benefits. But in order to do that, we have to peel back the curtain on the deception that's going on because otherwise it all sounds the same. People tune out. I've heard this before. I don't know. Is oatmeal good? Is it not good to do we, you know, because almonds using too much water.
Like, I don't know. Hmm. So, you know, it's like we need to band together and and try to find ways to educate and inform.
And not. Sort of. I think that there's a community impact. That has to happen, and it needs to start by conversations like this, by people who believe in what they're doing and the greater good of what this will do for all, and continue to elevate it if we don't do that well.
We're kind of all like, we need to row in unison fast and together to get ahead of this tidal wave that's coming. And it's not doom and gloom, right? Like, this is the beauty of regenerative. My mom and I have this conversation all the time, you know, she tries to tell me where you eat Cheerios. And I'm like, I know my Cheerios were different than what's in today's Cheerios, I promise. And you know, the latest is again. And now it's just fun. Like I just under stuff that I see on social media.
Or, you know, these great comparisons like this or that or whatever. And the latest one that I sent her was glyphosates and peanut butter. And you know, we buy organic peanut butter at home and she's like Skippy all the way. Like we'll never. She's their most loyal customer and all other peanut butter tastes terrible. And she's like, I just can't do it. Can't sticks to the roof of your mouth. Tastes bad, hard. They got the oil. She's going on.
0:59:09
Speaker #Kyle Krull
I'm like, yeah.
0:59:09
Speaker #Daniela Jensen
All peanut, you know? And she's like Dad sent me a study that talks about. You how much peanut butter you would need to eat in order for that to have an adverse impact and the point this is a great took me a little bit to get full circle on this. But the point is people think about it like oh it's just peanuts that have glyphosphate in it. Well it's the water we're drinking it's the it's it is.
In all of our foods, in our environment, like big picture, you know, we need to kind of look at this holistically to think and understand that it isn't just these little things that one person may or may not latch on to. So I think a societal shift has to happen in Europe. You know, these olives in Europe, the industrial olives, they laugh at them.